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Talk:Air Sand Protective Wall
Same jutsu?? Can we consider this techinque to be the same one he used in Manga chapter 561, where he cushions the Meteor after Onoki's jutsu? after all it does have the same effect--Kyle Ethan (talk) 18:41, October 27, 2011 (UTC) :What of it then?--Cerez365™ 19:40, October 27, 2011 (UTC) Wait... What? Wind Release? link. In here, 14:10, I'm pretty sure Gaara said Fūton. Can anyone help prove it being false?--Omojuze (talk) 17:09, January 17, 2015 (UTC) :Do you expect us to watch the whole thing? Also spoilers warning wouldn't be out of question.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:47, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::14:10, can you even read? I'm sorry for the spoilers I guess... >.< But yeah, I'm pretty sure Gaara said "fūton", meaning that all sand-themed techniques are Wind Release.--Omojuze (talk) 13:34, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::No, I simply guess the meaning of symbols I see on the screen and instinctively respond. Titans forbid me overlooking a part of a sentence, it happens geez, there's no need to be assholish about it. And I hear it. If true, does that mean Gaara moves his sand with Wind Release? 0_o--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:12, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::Nobody's being asshole-ish. Just read the sentence if you missed it, instead of jumping into conclusions. And about the sand, It would make sense as Shukaku's main gimmick in Part I was Wind Release.--Omojuze (talk) 14:16, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::If that technique is Wind Release, it would not mean that all sand techniques are Wind Release. What kind of weird conclusion is that? Gaara already has a Wind Release sand technique and we didn't list his other jutsu as Wind Release based on that, did we? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:15, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I knew you would say that and here's where you're wrong: 1) Unlike the other Wind Release techniques Gaara used, this one wasn't influenced by Shukaku. 2) This technique wasn't given "Wind Release:" in the databooks, meaning that it uses the same factor (controlling aspect) as all the other sand-based techniques that Gaara uses. 3) Since we're sure that Gaara doesn't use Magnet Release, this is the clear explanation as to how Gaara (and Shukaku) control sand, as Shukaku's main factor in battling is relying on Wind Relase. If you want more facts, I'm pretty sure I can provide more. There are more facts for than against (There are almost none facts against this claim).--Omojuze (talk) 15:22, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :# The other Wind Release technique wasn't influenced by Shukaku, either. Gaara is given as the sole user, it's his Wind Release. :# Exactly. But if it is Wind Release, it somehow isn't controled by that factor anymore? Why not? :# It's a prefix in a movie. That's hardly any explanation. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:31, January 18, 2015 (UTC) 1) No. Every time Gaara used a Wind Release technique, he was partially transformed into Shukaku. He himself has never used one. 2) Yes it is, that factor is Wind Release. 3) A prefix in the movie, which is canon. The whole "fūton" gives us enough proof to list it as that, until a better explanation (or a different one) is given. There is no point arguing about this.--Omojuze (talk) 15:34, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::# Gaara is given as the sole user, it is his Wind Release. That's the truth, man. Can't argue with the databook. ::# Why? In the other technique, the factor isn't Wind Release, either. If it were, why didn't we list all of Gaara's and Shukaku's techniques as Wind Release? ::# The story is canon. That doesn't mean that every little bit of the movie was supervised and given the okay by Kishimoto. ::We're not going to list this as Wind Release until a better quality rip of the movie is out. And even then, we'll list it under "Other names", because it's still a movie. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:46, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::Why are you making decisions on yourself? True, he was listed as a Wind Release user, but he didn't use a single wind release technique in the anime (aside from the one when he was partially transformed into Shukaku). We don't list other sand-themed techniques as Wind Release because this is the first time we're learning that those techniques are wind techniques, don't you remember the whole argument about the magnet release. The story is canon. We cannot choose what we think is canon and what is not. It was said that its canon, that means its canon, don't make your own assumptions. But yes, I do agree we should wait until the movie comes out in better quality. Again, since this one uses the same factor (sand controlling) as all the other sand-themed techniques that Gaara has used, and it is wind release, there is no point arguing and trying to say that others aren't wind release.--Omojuze (talk) 15:59, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::I'm making decision by myself because I'm a sysop, it's my job to ensure that everything goes by the rules. I know that Gaara didn't use any other Wind Release technique and that's exactly why we didn't list all of his techniques as Wind Release. This second one doesn't change that. Also, I'm not making assumptions. The story is canon, but as I said, Kishimoto didn't write the whole story, he didn't write every second of it. It's just the overall plot that is canon. What you're simply wrong with is making Wind Release the factor that moves the sand, despite nothing saying so. It's just your interpretation of what you saw. In your argument, you could easily switch the new Wind Release technique with the old one from part one. It wouldn't change the logic at all, but it would still be wrong. The fact that there's a Wind Release prefix does not make Wind Release the controlling factor of Gaara's techniques. That's all there is to say. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:07, January 18, 2015 (UTC) I don't think Kishi was the sole author of Jin no Sho was he? So by that most of the book is non-canon.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 16:14, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :^That. You forgot one thing: The technique used uses the SAME FACTOR as all other techniques Gaara has used. And the factor is SAND CONTROL. But this technique is WIND RELEASE. And since all techniques share the same factor, they share the same nature. (Like genjutsu share the same factor and have the same nature, being Yin Release). And so what if your a sysop, you're not the only one and you can't make important decisions on your own, and do as you please. The movie was referred to Chapter 699.5, we are not to say what was written by Kishimoto and what wasn't.--Omojuze (talk) 16:17, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Another sysop believes that the camrip is good enough as any to keep this discussion going. Carry on.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:21, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::Expanding further...Seelentau you can't say in the same sentence "The story is canon but we can pick and choose what else is canon." Not our decision. If the story is canon then everything in it is also canon. You (or rather, we as in this whole dang wiki) cannot pick and choose what is canon and what isn't based on what is convenient to us. Carry on...--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:28, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::I'm not trying to use the canonicity of the movie as an argument, don't worry. Omojuze, your mistake is that you assume that the nature is what controls the sand. Which isn't proven. As I said before, we already have a Wind Release sand technique, so a combination of Wind Release and sand control is nothing too unusual. There is no reason to believe that - just because a second Wind Release sand technique came into being - Wind Release is what moves the sand. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:40, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::You're completely ignoring the fact that this technique uses the same factor (as in sand control) as all other Gaara's techniques, while the Wind Release one he has (which was used while he was partially transformed into Shukaku) didn't have this factor.--Omojuze (talk) 16:43, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I'm not ignoring that. I'm just saying that just because it has the same factor and a nature, it doesn't mean that every technique with that factor uses the same nature. You still fail to establish a believable connection between the factor and the nature. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Let's just wait for more info, then we may keep on arguing. But I mean, it would make perfect sense that Wind manipulates the sand in Gaara's case, for all we know, it does in Shukaku's too, Jinton was never confirmed to move sand, only gold dust and iron sand.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 16:47, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::::Seelentau: No. If the factor has a nature, that means all techniques derived from that factor are of the same nature. This was not only explained by your precious databook (with the revelation that ALL GENJUTSU are Yin Release), but this is how its always done (just like all variations of Rasenshuriken are of Wind Release Nature).--Omojuze (talk) 16:49, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::But the factor doesn't have a nature. Gaara's sand control was attributed to normal chakra in the sand. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:53, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::It was never said "normal chakra". It was said "chakra". If a technique derived from the factor is called a "Wind Release", that means that the factor is Wind Release itself. Just like Rasenshuriken's factors are a Rasengan and Wind Release chakra. Any Genjutsu also has Yin Release as their factor. Is this so hard to understand? Sand Control is not a technique itself, that means it contains Wind Release chakra.--Omojuze (talk) 16:57, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::Are you aware that they don't have a word for "normal" chakra? When they talk about chakra, it's always the normal chakra, not some kind of nature manipulation. Also, can you proof that Wind Release controls the sand in this technique? • Seelentau 愛 議 17:06, January 18, 2015 (UTC) In this technique, Gaara manipulated sand and Shukaku merely blew at it with a gust of wind. -- WindStar7125 (talk | ) 17:11, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Why else would it be Fuuton Seel? It's a short scene and of low quality but it looks exactly the same and there seems to be no Fuuton added compared to the manga version.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 17:13, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :Oh, we have two Wind Release techniques, I forgot that one. WindStar actually makes the point I wanted to make: Just because it's a Wind Release technique, it doesn't mean that the Wind Release is what makes the sand move. We have two Wind Release sand techniques and in both instances, the Wind Release has nothing to do with the initial moving of the sand. It's merely used as an amplifying factor. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:17, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Actually, the one WindStar added is a collaborative technique and in no shape or form was it said that 2 Wind Release techniques cannot be combined into one. And yes, there is proof that wind release is the one controlling the sand. That is because this time it was called a Wind Release technique and it had the same effects and appearance as it was used the previous 2 times. I'm the one who should be asking: Do you have proof that other ones aren't wind release because I do have proof (and logic behind me, even with the information from the databook) that all of 'em are Wind Release.--Omojuze (talk) 17:30, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::So if this one time is proof enough that all of Gaara's techniques are Wind Release, then all those countless times when there was no Wind Release included are more than enough proof that Gaara's techniques are no Wind Release. Also, since you are the one who began this discussion, it's you who has the burden of proof, not me. As long as you can't bring certain proof for your proposal, it's invalid. And so far, I countered every argument you gave me. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:41, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::I think a lot of instances made it clear that if "Wind Release" was not said out loud, doesn't make the technique not a Wind Release one. I've delivered countless proof, all of which you blew off for foolish reasons that only you agree with, despite your precious databook providing us with several similar instances.--Omojuze (talk) 17:45, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::I've yet to see those instances. Furthermore, we have two techniques that are sand related, where Wind Release was included in the title. The fact that every other of Gaara's techniques does not have Wind Release in its title or description in any of the databooks is proof enough. You're basing your whole argumentation on the little fact that some movie writers called a technique Wind Release, while ignoring a whole manga opus where the same techniques were never attributed to Wind Release at all. I mean, of course we can name that one jutsu Wind Release, but not all of Gaara's techniques based on simply that. There's an explanation for the sand movement in the manga, there are no signs of Wind Release involved in the manga or databook and in every instance there actually was Wind Release involved (two times), it was included in the technique's name. As I said, a little fact from an albeit canon movie does simply not hold enough weight compared to the main series. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:17, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::This movie is considered canon and, as Kishimoto said himself, the explanations he provides may change. We don't have any Wind Release techniques listed that include the manipulation of sand (the factor of this one), with the exception of the collaborative technique of Gaara and Shukaku, and, again, in no shape or form was it said that 2 Wind Release can't mix. And just 'cause the name doesn't have "Wind Release" prefix, doesn't make it a non-Wind Release, i thought we made it perfectly clear, on which even you agreed upon. And the instances, I already pointed them out: Genjutsu (all genjutsu are Yin Release) and Rasenshuriken variations (all variations are Wind Release). This is the same, all Sand Manipulation Techniques are of Wind Release Nature. You're only arguing about this because this was proven in the movie, but you're forgetting that the movie is considered 100% canon. There is plenty of proof and you're just keeping to say the same things over and over again. There's no point in arguing, as nobody seems to have the same believes as you have. Unless you want to leave it up to a vote or something, All sand-manipulation techniques should, and eventually will, be listed to be of Wind Release nature.--Omojuze (talk) 18:30, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :::::::I know that the movie is canon, but it is one instance of a sand technique with Wind Release prefix versus countless instances of no sign of Wind Release ever involved. Kishimoto had four databooks and 700 chapters to make Wind Release the reason for Gaara's sand control, but he did not. He only used Wind Release in instances where the sand was amplified by the wind. There is no manga instance were Gaara used Wind Release to control sand, but there are two manga instances were the wind amplifies the sand. I don't see any reason to believe that this couldn't be a third instance of such an amplification. Your one-time movie instance faces a whole manga and four databooks that do not support it. So please, just leave it be. I really can't say anything new anymore, so it's up to the others. That you repeat yourself as well is something I really don't need to emphazise, do I? Oh and by the way, bolding words makes you look like an idiot who doesn't know any other way to make his point. It's basically like screaming in a real world argumentation. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:40, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Question: Is all Sand manipulation Earth Release because of this technique? -- WindStar7125 (talk | ) 18:42, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::I bolded those words because I said them more than once and you kept ignoring them, that was the only way to truly get your attention. The Wind doesn't power up the sand in any instances, one was a collaborative technique and Shukaku's technique already had a "Wind Release" prefix. The other time, sand manipulation wasn't even a part of that technique (it was an improved version of Orochimaru's wind release technique, that's it, which also has a prefix). I would agree with the amplification thing, but as seen from the scene, the technique in no shape or form was amplified, it was the same as used against Madara and against Deidara. And it doesn't face against the databooks or the anime/manga. Just because it wasn't spoken upon, doesn't make it false.--Omojuze (talk) 18:45, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::Not sand manipulation technique, as it uses pre-existing sand that is in no shape or form controlled as highly as Gaara's (by that I mean it doesn't have Shukaku's sand manipulating factor).--Omojuze (talk) 18:45, January 18, 2015 (UTC) If you are so against this, I would suggest putting it to a vote in the forums? Is that possible?--Omojuze (talk) 18:47, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :Did I miss the part of the argument where it was confirmed that Gaara does indeed say "Futon"? I don't hear it, but then I don't watch the anime so I'm not practiced in how the word ordinarily sounds. ''~SnapperT '' 19:48, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Well, it indeed sounds like Fuuton. But it may be not, since the recording is low quality. So we may be arguing for nothing.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 20:18, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Dues, Gaara is Kazekage and is listed with 3 chakra natures. Sand is Sand on its own which he got from Shukaku. Gaara can simply mix any of his 3 Charka nature's with his Sand to make it more powerful etc. In this case he used Wind Style chakra with his Sand. I recall he did same thing with Lightning based chakra in the second Naruto Movie against Ranke. The End. Yeesh. --Kyle Ethan (talk) 13:31, January 20, 2015 (UTC) :You do know that the creators of the second movie had no idea what Gaara's chakra natures besides Wind are because it hadn't been revealed yet and that the movie in question is not canon, right?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 13:36, January 20, 2015 (UTC) : yes i do know this, but since the series is in its final stages etc, anything non-canon can be used once they have relevance towards what is canon. After all its all the same series.--Kyle Ethan (talk) 13:47, January 20, 2015 (UTC) :: If you're talking about Sand Lightning Needles then you sure don't know what you're talking about. This technique didn't produce lightning. It guided the lightning current to the needles and then it became a lightning insulator which trapped the lightning and made it into a stronger force against the opponent. A similar thing can be used with Wind as wind is strong against lightning.--Omojuze (talk) 14:19, January 20, 2015 (UTC) : The Sand Lightning Rods absorbed the Lightning, put simply. To do that he clearly had the Affinity for Lightning. No where did it state about a "Wind Style" when he did it. Do you even know how electrical currents and Attraction work? In order for a Lightning Rod to attract or pull in electricity it needs to possessive an attractive property, thus in Gaara's case "Lightning Style chakra", where it channels it into the ground. Sand is obviously not an Attraction for Lightning or electricity on its own, thus only logical thing is that Gaara used a Lightning Affinity chakra as a Base in conjunction with the sand to attract Ranke's Plasma bolts.--Kyle Ethan (talk) 16:23, January 20, 2015 (UTC) ::They didn't "absorb" lightning. A metallic object (in this case, not a metallic object, but sand), mounted into the earth with a conductor (Ranke's lightning, as it was radiating around the battlefield (as Gaara needed a specific layout on the field)) is enough to create a lightning rod. In no shape or form did he use Lightning Release there.--Omojuze (talk) 17:13, January 20, 2015 (UTC) Wind Release version Why was Wind Release: Air Sand Protective Wall deleted? I was under the impression only Senjutsu enhanced versions of techniques get merged, otherwise we would of merged Wind Release: Rasengan with Rasengan a long time ago. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:43, March 14, 2015 (UTC) used on tengai tensei? The one he used on madara's meteor seemed to resemble a giant sand arm, more akin to his monstrous sand arm technique. It isnt even shaped as the sand shield he used on c3. Why say he used it on the meteor? (Jaakor48 (talk) 15:09, May 1, 2015 (UTC))